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Post by Crysi on Jun 16, 2006 16:42:11 GMT -5
Bravo, Dusky. Exactly what I was going to say. Er, eventually.
See, Jesus knew it wasn't going to be easy to take the sins of the world upon Himself. That's why He asked God that if there was any other way, to do that instead. So it's no wonder that He felt forsaken on the cross - here He who had never sinned was forced to take the sins of the world, forced to be the sacrifice. That momentarily separated Him from the Father. That must have been a very scary experience for Him.
Feeling forsaken does NOT mean one no longer believes in God. It simply means one feels as though God is no longer close, no longer there to help you, although one knows He still exists. Trust me. I've felt many times that I've been forsaken by God, but in the end, He's always been right there beside me.
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sabradan
Senior Writer
The Godfather.
Posts: 179
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Post by sabradan on Jun 16, 2006 21:14:34 GMT -5
My way of seeing the Christian legacy: I have no issues with God. He/She/It has been pretty good to me overall. What I have problems with is organized religion--and especially Christianity. The arrogance of it, assuming that Christians know the One True God and the One Right Way, and everyone else is wrong and doomed to hell for being raised to believe differently... I'm sorry if I have the interpretation wrong, but based on several conversations with one of my friends, a nondenominational Christian pastor's daughter, that is how I have come to view the religion. Of course, if what I said above doesn't apply to you, please accept my sincerest apologies for generalizing and my thanks for being so freaking awesome. ^_^ *claps*
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Stevie
Novice
Jesus Freak
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Post by Stevie on Jun 25, 2006 17:14:05 GMT -5
More likely than not, God is a He. Adam was created in God's own image, and Adam's a he, so God probably is too..
Haha! So Atheist believe there is no God, right? If that's the case. Then that means that your saying that for a moment God didn't believe in himself. How is that possible?
By the way, the back bone of Christianity is that Jesus died on the cross for OUR sins, that he took the punishment so that we won't have to live eternaty in hell/Lake of Fire/Whichever.
Each domination is basically a different religion, trust me, just look at the news and you'll find out what I'm talking about. It's like asking a Christian about Catholic stuff and visa versa.
And another thing.. who better to ask a question about Christianity then a Christian? I'm sorry but sometimes you can get wrong clonclusions from non-christians.. Although I think everyone has been pretty accurate here, except for the Dan Brown Theory. But that's getting off topic a bit.
(Sorry if everything seems a bit random.. I just think like that)
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sabradan
Senior Writer
The Godfather.
Posts: 179
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Post by sabradan on Jun 25, 2006 17:40:52 GMT -5
Stevie, So you find it impossible that a RABBI (as in religious leader) broke two major commandments/traditions of his Jewish faith in a time when religion governed all aspects of everyday life?
These two commandments/traditions being marriage and childbirth. "You shall be fruitful and multiply; and Your tribe shall number the stars in the sky and all the grains of sand in the desert" and all that. (Im not getting this from Dan Brown, but I think of this myself.)
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Stevie
Novice
Jesus Freak
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Post by Stevie on Jun 25, 2006 20:49:17 GMT -5
That's not exactly a command. If you noticed in the bible that God gets less intence on the "multiplying" as time goes on. (example: In the beginning God allowed brothers and sisters to get married and have kids, and now he doesn't.)
I have one thing to say about that, Jesus didn't follow some of the traditions of the day, he celebrated the Jewish holidays, like passover, but he didn't follow some of the Sabbath traditions like teaching on the Sabbath, healing on the Sabbath, and picking grain and eating it on the Sabbath (I'm sorry I thought that was funny when I read it; Matthew 12:1-14)
What do you think Dan Brown did?
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Sureal
Writer
Do not fear; I shall protect you from pwnage.
Posts: 77
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Post by Sureal on Jun 28, 2006 13:16:05 GMT -5
I can sometimes Christian's to be rather arrogant. But, to be fair, it's not unusal for Athiests to also be arrogant.
What I find annoying is when someone tries to force their beliefs onto others, and this something Christains - especially American Christians - try to do.
For example, by teaching Creationism in science classes, by spreading lies about contraception (if you live in America's Bible-belt then I suggest you drop everything you've been taught about contraception and go do some research on it at wikipedia or some other such site; there's a fair chance that everything you've been taught on the subject isn't true), by trying to outlaw abortion (although this isn't a Christain only movement, it is very Christian focused) by trying to ban gay marriage (or worse, to make homosexuality illegal) and the other odd stuff that many Christain are trying to make law.
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Elelel
Junior Writer
SJDfhdlkjf hweaj lk s 7r34 jxcfuiw
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Post by Elelel on Jul 2, 2006 0:07:50 GMT -5
I am Catholic, and I deal with my religious side by ignoring it.
I don't really have an opinion on whether it's the right religion or if God exists or whatever. I can't really see any reason to make up my mind, either. So I haven't, and probably never will.
What I do not like about Christianity is the annoying habit it has of thinking everything is it's business when it isn't. Religion really ought to be separated from politics by law. Nothing good comes from them being mixed. I don't really think it is the church's business whether abortion is allowed or if gay marriage is made legal. What people who do not follow the religion do should be of no concern to them. It's fine that they have these beliefs, everyone's entitiled to believe what they like, but it isn't right that they should try to force them on the rest of the world. Whether we go to hell or not is our own business. That's my major problem with Christianity.
I can't say I've read the bible very attentively (insert "at all is you don't include for school work" instead of "very attentively" if you like) so I don't really know if God ever was an atheist. Probably not. If it did happen it doesn't sound like the sort of thing that would make it to the bible.
In response to the comment that Christianity is like Judaism without the hard work:
Hehe! You're probably right. Christianity branched from Judaism, so there are similarities between them, but it does seem to me that Judaism requires a lot more work to follow properly.
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Post by Duskglimmer on Jul 2, 2006 16:52:38 GMT -5
In all honestly, you cannot seperate religon from politics. In essence, religon is a world view and you cannot do anything without your worldview being reflected in it.
And Surreal - Christians feel that other people's beliefs are being forced on them when evolution is taught in science classes. There's really no getting around that particular issue unless the school system chooses to teach both sides of the issue.
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Sureal
Writer
Do not fear; I shall protect you from pwnage.
Posts: 77
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Post by Sureal on Jul 2, 2006 17:44:10 GMT -5
Evolution isn't a world view, it is science and is supported by the evidence that we have gathered. There are countless Christian's who accept evolution. Creationism is pure religion, with no science to back it up (if you disagree with me, then I will be more than happy to debate with you in the debate forum and as such should not appear in science classes (but it should in Religious Education lessons). There is no 'issue' on whether or not evolution is correct in the scientific world - it is a purely religious and political controversity, and so both sides of the issue should not be taught in Science classes (as there is only currently one side). It is very easy to seperate religion from politics. For example - I am an Athiest, but I would not allow my beliefs to affect others. If Athiesm was againt gay marriage (for example) I would have to put that aside (accepting it as my own personal belief) and would not prevent gays from marrying. I would not prohibit anyone doing anything that is against my own personal beliefs. Many Christians (and people other faiths) seem to disagree with me - they see their world view as the only true one, and so enforce this (or at least try too) onto others.
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Post by Firestarter on Jul 2, 2006 18:20:37 GMT -5
On that logic, they should put forward every single view of the history of biology and such, because otherwise you're being too selective about evolution and creationism?
Why not my theory on how humans descended from flowers?
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Post by Duskglimmer on Jul 2, 2006 19:11:45 GMT -5
Surreal - Just by telling me that I cannot force my beliefs on others, you are forcing your beliefs on me.
And Evolution is a theory. Nothing more. Just as there are Christians who believe in evolution, there are non-religous scientists who believe in creationism.
Firestarter - Sure. We can teach that too. My point is, that you cannot select one teaching that does not support any religon. The only way to make sure that you do not side with anyone is to teach everyone's point of view.
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Bjorn
Senior Writer
Posts: 104
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Post by Bjorn on Jul 2, 2006 21:07:09 GMT -5
More likely than not, God is a He. Adam was created in God's own image, and Adam's a he, so God probably is too.. So...God has the genetalia of a man?.....Does God need to pee? Does God enact in sexual activities? And with whom, I dare ask? These questions must be taken into consideration when trying to figure out the gender of God...But if God was a man, then women are subservient to men, in a sense... The problem lies here - women bear men's heirs, they can choose not to. I'd say God has no gender, but like you and my religion teacher quoted from the Bible, I'd be evidently wrong. Perhaps in the Judeo-Christian belief God is a man, but that to me is a flaw. Therefore counting Judeo-Christianity as nothing more than myth. No different from a trio of tempered gods killing a giant created from a melting ice-block, and creating the earth from his body. Whether God is real or not, to me, is irrelevant. Because I believe the individual has the power of making God exist or not. That Christianity is such a wide-spread belief, having the most adherents in the world than any other belief, is mostly thanks to the Roman Empire. Islam was created in the 6th century, Judaism (from which stems the latter two mentioned) even was created sometime the 13 century B.C. But what about before that time? Where was God before? He was amongst the beliefs of the time; He was the explination to everything, and in each part of the world He had a different mask. I'd say Judaism is the closest to sensible of the religions that praise God (Yahweh, Allah). Jesus, I think, continued preaching good will. Oh yes I believe Jesus was a real man-son of God? Nay, but a preacher of good morales, yes. After that religion became tied up with the state (i.e. Rome) and the 'pagans' of Europe were ruthlessly purged, or royal houses accepted the religion as a way of consolidating power. It was a machine for power. It caused wars. Religion on a state level only causes grievances. Religion practiced by the average citizen is good because it provides morales and gives a direction in life, whether there is a God or not. Religion is just a way of life. What the state does is use peoples adherence to a religion and manipulates them, pitting them against its enemies in the name of bringing the 'right' religion to them. When in the end all religions are the same-they explain the inexplainable. Let me quote a great German philosopher of the 19th century: "God Is Dead"-Nietszche. It's true because the underlying message of religion has become corrupt.
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Post by Deloclya on Jul 2, 2006 21:36:09 GMT -5
What I have problems with is organized religion--and especially Christianity. The arrogance of it, assuming that Christians know the One True God and the One Right Way, and everyone else is wrong and doomed to hell for being raised to believe differently... Just quick, that's actually a belief that the church has dropped, that's more medieval. Now they say that they think their way is the best way, the most direct path to God, but not necessarily the only way to God and say that if you life a good and faithful life, that you will still make it to heaven, even if you're not Christian. No offense meant or taken, just spreading information Christianity and I have a complex relationship. My father and his side of the family are extremely devout. He had an uncle that was a bishop and two uncles that were missionaries in Vietnam during World War Two and were taken prisoner. One of his other uncles actually was part of the rescue party that saved his missionary brothers. One of these uncles also wrote books about the faith, though I have trouble keeping them all straight. My dad and all his brothers and sisters [he was one of seven!] went to private catholic schools complete with nuns and metal rulers. On my Mother's side of the family, it's quite the opposite. My grandmother goes to church every sunday and I suppose she's pretty devout... My grandfather doesn't believe in God. My mother didn't get babtized until she was older, I believe, and my grandmother had to fight for her baptism... Now my family, we have a room full of books all about christianity, crosses all over the house and all sorts of Christian family things all over the house. We attend church every sunday without fail. I've been raised in a Christian house hold. My mother believes that I should be able to make my own choices, but bids me to appease my father until I'm out of the house. Now myself, before I even begin to talk about christianity and me, I have to explain this: I am a very open minded individual. I mean I'm stubborn when I have a viewpoint and I think I'm right, but 99% of the time I'm willing to listen to both sides of the story and weigh them equally. I believe that this open mindedness, from what he has seen, frightens my father. Apparently he was 'afraid for my soul' for a time when I was reading lots of books about other religions. He's very conservative and very devout, so change and even interest in change angers him. My thoughts on christianity... are torn. On the one hand, I defend Christianity and I believe in it. It's easy to, that's how I've been raised. And there are times in my life when I firmly believe in it all. I look around outside and I see the beauty of creation and the wonders of God. Other times, it's easier for me to believe in philosophies and forge my own path. It's so hard for me. Christianity has brought me great turmoil; I absolutely despise the people at our church. They think I'm some kind of rebel. I mean their kids, the ones I've grown up with are great and fun, but the parents all think I'm this "black sheep" and that I've "Deviated from the path"... It's like they all feel sorry for me and look down on me and I hate it. And like i said, I'm really open minded so I listen to philsophies and they make more sense to me than Christianity does. But then other times, for example, around easter my dad does a lot of special stuff with the passion and we watched The Passion of the Christ together... It strengthened my faith. I've read all of Dan Brown's books. They held my attention and were nice stories. They were fun to toy with in my head for a time, but there is just far too much evidence against them to consider them as factual in any way. I've gotten in enormous fights with my father when I'm feeling further from Christianity. He screams at me and broke down into tears at one point when i said I didn't believe in it. He blamed the media and said that my faith was all that I had. And the fact that my father believes in something that strongly honestly terrifies me. My father is an extremely intelligent man; closed minded and conservative, but he knows so much. I learn something from him every day. So if he, being one of the most intelligent people I've ever come across believes so strongly in it, it has to be true. On the one hand, I mean. And then of course I look back and for awhile it really bothered me, what the church did during the Middle Ages and the Spanish Inquisition and all that... The corruption disgusts me. And I find that it's the institutions that I'm against, not the religion itself. but then we get into the part where they changed things in the bible to justify different things, I.E. witch hunts, etc. So i suppose after typing all that I'm not really sure what I'm trying to say. I have a lot of information for and against christianity, and I read a lot of people's opinions and I can agree with things on both sides. The arrogance annoyed me too Fand. But I told my dad that and he sat down with me and answered a lot of questions. When I'm reasonable and my dad is willing to talk, he can help me a lot with being faithful. I still don't know where I stand. I go to church on sundays and I listen, but I go home and I still don't know. I have a good friend who is very interested in philosophy and he explained his own personal collection of philosophies to me and they all made perfect sense and I could see where he was coming from. Then i went home and talked to my dad and I could see where he was coming from too. I don't know, It's a difficult topic for me. I didn't reply to this for so long because I wasn't sure what to say and where to start. But that's all I have to say, in a nutshell. I could go on for ages explaining my different views but I'm sure I've bored anyone who could stand to read this far into my rant as it is.
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Fand
Writer
Posts: 89
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Post by Fand on Jul 2, 2006 21:47:08 GMT -5
Just a note on the 'both sides of evolution should be taught in classrooms' thing (and yes, I know that's paraphrased, but bear with me) - I agree WHOLEHEARTEDLY with Firestarter. In fact, I did my senior dissertation on the evolution debate - which means, I spent approximately seven months researching and listing the pros and cons, and even took a biology class at night to help me understand the particulars behind some of the more technical examples. I also consulted various clergymen and women, so I like to think that I'm rather literate in terms of this subject.
If creationism "should" be taught alongside evolution, so should the flat-earth theory. Oh, and how about that theory - a Christian creationist theory, mind you - that God created Earth relatively recently, but in order to trick us (and only God knows why, pun intended) made it look much older? He really stuck it to those pesky scientists that time!
Let's face it: we'll never have a unanimous decision on this. If you believe it, I'm glad for you. Really, I am; you believe in something very strongly, and that's something to be encouraged. But some of us prefer to question and to ascertain; does that make our point of view less valid?
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Bjorn
Senior Writer
Posts: 104
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Post by Bjorn on Jul 3, 2006 0:00:13 GMT -5
Well Delo, I see you're having a more difficult time then me when I began questioning my faith. You see though I come from a family who are Catholic, and as far as I can tell always have been; a family that has crosses in almost every room, and other religious pictures and periphernalia, were not uber-Catholics or conservatives. Thankfully. Because you see Catholocism is but a sub-group of Christianity, which itself is a derivation of the much older Judaism. Why it exists? It just happens to believe in some things which other Christian religions may not or have a differing opinion on. And has a certain way of following it. When it comes down to it my family is more or less just Christian (though we go to a Franciscan church). Besides going to church a few times a month, and praying before meals, the only thing religion does for us in our everyday lives is strengthens us in times of doubt and grief and gives us morales to follow. Thats it. When it comes down to it logic overrides faith. My father's a very down-to-earth logical guy. And I'm glad, really. It's helped shaped my own beliefs.
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